Random Thoughts on TV, Movies, Gaming, Current Events and Whatever I Feel Like
Sunday, April 19, 2009
Equal Time
In response to the Daily Show, my friend Joe has posted a video to YouTube explaining his argument. I don't agree with his concerns, but I think it's fair to air them.
Some of what he says makes some sense but not much. It's clear that there are problems with the political system in terms of how accountable they actually are to the voters and just as clear that some of their actions--voting on bills without reading them-are stupid. But let's look at the other side. First, the issue of representation has always been controversial in democratic theory. The framers did not believe that representatives should slavishly follow the expressed will of the constitutents; they wanted them to use their own best judgement. I'm not naive enough to think that the current reps vote strictly on what they consider the best interests of the country, but it's just as problematic to say that they should "represent" whatever particular group makes a lot of noise, as your friend seems to want. Sure, most people might be against the specific bill but should a rep vote against it if he or she thinks that not passing it would be worse?
Second, given the time constraints and pressures on people in congress, it's inevitable that some legislation will not be as thoroughly vetted as it should. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes. However, to make a partisan point, if the GOP didn't spend all it's time making ridiculous ad hominem attacks on everything the Dems do (accusing Obama of tyranny and so forth), maybe the reps could have more time to actually debate and discuss the legislation.
Third, I'm not aware of any representatives that are mocking the teabaggers. This is primarily being done by Stewart and Colbert, et. al. I have no doubt that they took stuff out of context as your friend suggest; that's what they do. But how can you take these people seriously when they are throwing around charges of fascism. Stewart made a good point when he noted that the left and the right had switched positions. How many of the conservatives now defending free speech were defending the anti-war protesters at the beginning of the Iraq War? It's complete hypocrsy.
I can't help but think that your friend is more concerned about the fact that his side lost rather than he is about taxation without representation.
Sorry, Marc. "b-b-b-Bush!" isn't a defense against what the Democrats have done to the deficit in the last couple of weeks.
Time constraints? What was the rush? Obama himself scuttled off on vacation after the bill was voted on by Congress! They had the time to sit and read the thing. They simply chose not to.
Democrats aren't the ones deprecating the tea party protests? You must be reading different news sites than I am:
Joe, there are (at least) two blatant misrepresentations in your brief e-mail.
The President did not "go on vacation". You're thinking of the last guy who, as of *last March*, had spent 879 days on vacation during one of the most critical times in American history. That's over a quarter of his Presidency. He spent more time on vacation than any President ever has.
The current President went to Europe and Central America to try to repair our tattered reputation and dysfunctional diplomacy. He also visited Iraq.
And the whole "Senators didn't read the bill" argument is really disingenuous. This isn't the 19th century when bills were fairly simple and straightforward. Bills like the stimulus package and the budget are highly technical documents hundreds of pages in length. That's why Congresspeople have staffs. The staff experts read the various sections and then discuss the issues with the Congressperson. That's the only way they could get anything done. You can bemoan the fact that bills have become way too complicated, but to expect them to read them front to back is not remotely realistic.
I thought I saw Bush at Wisconsin Dells vacationing. I'm not sure you are getting the truth by watching a comedy show to get your news, or for that matter any of the mainstream media organizations either. Although truth is very overated isnt it. I mean who decides truth? It is fact that republicans and democrats alike have screwed up and do not take responsibility for their actions. Highly techinal documents or not, they are responsbile. We will see at the next election if we will hold them accountable for their actions.
Yes, both Republicans and Democrats have responsibility for the current mess. But, after 8 years of Republican rule, you can't fairly partial out blame equally and say a pox on both your homes. The Republicans controlled the presidence and both houses of congress for most of that time. And, really, since Reagan, the Republicans have dominated the political agenda. It was primarily, albeit not entirely, the Republicans that eviscerated regulatory protections, ignored (indeed worsended) environmental problems, militarized our foreign policy and created enourmous hatred of the United States, polarized the country with their extreme conservative positions on social issues, etc.
As for getting news from a comedy show, who the hell are you to say where I get my news from. I certainly DON'T rely on Comedy Central for the news and I also don't rely on the Fox propaganda network either. As for attacking the "mainstream media" that's just a tired mantra of the right and the left that conflates their beliefs with the facts. Apparently, your idea of "news" is Rush Limbaugh or someone calling Obama a "fascist."
As for the deficit, Joe, I don't what the hell you are talking about. I didn't even mention Bush or the deficit nor did I defend Obama's handling of the crisis. However, if you are going to pretend I said something I didn't, yes, Obama inherited a horrible economic mess from Bush. Conservatives act as if Obama created the mess and handed it off to Bush.
Of course Democrats are deprecating the tea parties, just as Republicans deprecated the anti-war protests. How come it's treason for one but patriotism for the other?
Basically, I acknowledged that there were problems with our democracy and that the issue of representation is problematic both from a theoretical and a real-world perspective. You, however, choose to take the position that you aren't represented because the government doesn't do what you think they should. I didn't realize that democracy required each and every person to get what they wanted.
By the way, Anonymous, if you want, I would be glad to provide a list of newspapers and journals from where I get my news and develop opinions. It's a little broader than The Daily Show and Colbert Report. None, however, is Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.
7 comments:
Right on Joe
Some of what he says makes some sense but not much. It's clear that there are problems with the political system in terms of how accountable they actually are to the voters and just as clear that some of their actions--voting on bills without reading them-are stupid. But let's look at the other side. First, the issue of representation has always been controversial in democratic theory. The framers did not believe that representatives should slavishly follow the expressed will of the constitutents; they wanted them to use their own best judgement. I'm not naive enough to think that the current reps vote strictly on what they consider the best interests of the country, but it's just as problematic to say that they should "represent" whatever particular group makes a lot of noise, as your friend seems to want. Sure, most people might be against the specific bill but should a rep vote against it if he or she thinks that not passing it would be worse?
Second, given the time constraints and pressures on people in congress, it's inevitable that some legislation will not be as thoroughly vetted as it should. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes. However, to make a partisan point, if the GOP didn't spend all it's time making ridiculous ad hominem attacks on everything the Dems do (accusing Obama of tyranny and so forth), maybe the reps could have more time to actually debate and discuss the legislation.
Third, I'm not aware of any representatives that are mocking the teabaggers. This is primarily being done by Stewart and Colbert, et. al. I have no doubt that they took stuff out of context as your friend suggest; that's what they do. But how can you take these people seriously when they are throwing around charges of fascism. Stewart made a good point when he noted that the left and the right had switched positions. How many of the conservatives now defending free speech were defending the anti-war protesters at the beginning of the Iraq War? It's complete hypocrsy.
I can't help but think that your friend is more concerned about the fact that his side lost rather than he is about taxation without representation.
Sorry, Marc. "b-b-b-Bush!" isn't a defense against what the Democrats have done to the deficit in the last couple of weeks.
Time constraints? What was the rush? Obama himself scuttled off on vacation after the bill was voted on by Congress! They had the time to sit and read the thing. They simply chose not to.
Democrats aren't the ones deprecating the tea party protests? You must be reading different news sites than I am:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/19/axelrod-suggests-tea-party-movement-is-unhealthy/
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/04/16/schakowsky-tea-parties-despicable/
Not to mention the completely biased coverage among the "mainstream" media:
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/cnn/cnn_reporter_at_chicago_tea_party_its_anticnn_since_this_is_highly_promoted_by_the_rightwing_conservative_network_fox_114141.asp
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/16/cable-anchors-guests-use-tea-parties-platform-frat-house-humor/
Joe, there are (at least) two blatant misrepresentations in your brief e-mail.
The President did not "go on vacation". You're thinking of the last guy who, as of *last March*, had spent 879 days on vacation during one of the most critical times in American history. That's over a quarter of his Presidency. He spent more time on vacation than any President ever has.
The current President went to Europe and Central America to try to repair our tattered reputation and dysfunctional diplomacy. He also visited Iraq.
And the whole "Senators didn't read the bill" argument is really disingenuous. This isn't the 19th century when bills were fairly simple and straightforward. Bills like the stimulus package and the budget are highly technical documents hundreds of pages in length. That's why Congresspeople have staffs. The staff experts read the various sections and then discuss the issues with the Congressperson. That's the only way they could get anything done. You can bemoan the fact that bills have become way too complicated, but to expect them to read them front to back is not remotely realistic.
I thought I saw Bush at Wisconsin Dells vacationing.
I'm not sure you are getting the truth by watching a comedy show to get your news, or for that matter any of the mainstream media organizations either.
Although truth is very overated isnt it. I mean who decides truth?
It is fact that republicans and democrats alike have screwed up and do not take responsibility for their actions. Highly techinal documents or not, they are responsbile. We will see at the next election if we will hold them accountable for their actions.
Anonymous,
Yes, both Republicans and Democrats have responsibility for the current mess. But, after 8 years of Republican rule, you can't fairly partial out blame equally and say a pox on both your homes. The Republicans controlled the presidence and both houses of congress for most of that time. And, really, since Reagan, the Republicans have dominated the political agenda. It was primarily, albeit not entirely, the Republicans that eviscerated regulatory protections, ignored (indeed worsended) environmental problems, militarized our foreign policy and created enourmous hatred of the United States, polarized the country with their extreme conservative positions on social issues, etc.
As for getting news from a comedy show, who the hell are you to say where I get my news from. I certainly DON'T rely on Comedy Central for the news and I also don't rely on the Fox propaganda network either. As for attacking the "mainstream media" that's just a tired mantra of the right and the left that conflates their beliefs with the facts.
Apparently, your idea of "news" is Rush Limbaugh or someone calling Obama a "fascist."
As for the deficit, Joe, I don't what the hell you are talking about. I didn't even mention Bush or the deficit nor did I defend Obama's handling of the crisis. However, if you are going to pretend I said something I didn't, yes, Obama inherited a horrible economic mess from Bush. Conservatives act as if Obama created the mess and handed it off to Bush.
Of course Democrats are deprecating the tea parties, just as Republicans deprecated the anti-war protests. How come it's treason for one but patriotism for the other?
Basically, I acknowledged that there were problems with our democracy and that the issue of representation is problematic both from a theoretical and a real-world perspective. You, however, choose to take the position that you aren't represented because the government doesn't do what you think they should. I didn't realize that democracy required each and every person to get what they wanted.
By the way, Anonymous, if you want, I would be glad to provide a list of newspapers and journals from where I get my news and develop opinions. It's a little broader than The Daily Show and Colbert Report. None, however, is Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.
And, no, I don't think truth is overrated.
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